Welcome to Lunacy; where we discern the sacred from the insane and admit that whether we like it or not, we are all profoundly affected by the cycles of the moon.
Today, I’m joined by my good friend Craig Dobbin. Craig is a composer for film and Television, and has been working on NCIS Los Angeles for the last seven seasons. He is also a self-expression and leadership program leader for Landmark Education, and is continuing his career working on other films and projects now that NCIS Los Angeles is reaching completion.
Tune into our conversation about music, inspiration, the power of listening, integrity, Love Operating System.
Find Craig at: www.craigdobbin.com
Learn more about Landmark Education at: www.landmarkworldwide.com
I welcome your thoughts on this episode! Comment on Youtube or find me on Instagram!
I’m Geoff Eido. Join me each week for interviews and insights intended to shine a light on the darkness, like the full moon in the forest.
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I am Jeff Fado. This is Lunacy where we discern the sacred from the insane and admit that whether we like it or not, we are all profoundly affected by the cycles of the moon. Oh, My guest today is Craig Dobbin, Who's a, uh, who's a composer of film and television and has been working on N C I S Los Angeles for the last seven seasons. Uh, he's also a self-expression and leadership program leader for landmark education and, uh, is continuing his career working on other films and projects now that N C s Los Angeles is reaching completion. So welcome, Craig. So excited to have you on the show. It's great to see you, my brother. thanks Jeff. It's really great to be here. I'm really looking forward to, to hanging and talking. yeah, definitely. So I'd like to get into just a little bit of, your history and how you got started and how it is that you, you know, that you got, that you landed the N C I S Los Angeles job and, and a little bit about what com composing is for you. Okay, great. Great. What start at the beginning, I guess Yeah. know, I was, uh, I don't come from a musical family, so I, uh, I mean the most music that we had in my, in my family, I grew up in a small town in North Carolina. It was a little, I mean, literally I consider myself a genuine hillbilly. It was up in the Appalachian Mountains, really small town. Um, and, uh, my grandmother lived in the town too, and she had a piano at her house. And this was the extent of my musical thing. And I, when I'd go over there, I'd just plunk out notes on the piano and figure out things. And, uh, someone showed me a chord once and I like, figured out the chord and I'm like, oh, that's cool. You can play more than one notes. And, and, uh, uh, my mom took a notice to it and decided to put me in piano lessons and, mom. Yeah. Good mom. Good mom. And I, I still, I remember going into my first piano lesson and I know two chords and you see major and C minor, and I'd go back and forth between them and I just thought it was the coolest sound. And I went to my piano to say, look at what I made up. Look at what I made up. And I was six. And she's like, okay, great. Let's teach you how to write notes so that you know how to write down what you make up. And, um, uh, you know, my father, huge music fan. I mean, he was a big Beatles fan and he had this, I mean, record collection. And I just would go through his records and he had a ton of soundtracks. He loved movie soundtracks, so he had like Barry Linton and Clockwork Orange, the Kubrick stuff. And then, you know, when, uh, when Star Wars came out, of course he bought the orchestral score for Star Wars. And so we would always be playing movie soundtracks at my house, and I loved it. So when I was in piano, I could always ask my teacher for one kind of, we had one song we could choose to learn. Everything else was scales and the things that she wanted us, but we always had one kind of elective. And I always picked a movie theme like Jaws or Close Encounters, or Star Wars or Pink Panther, or you know, Superman, anything that it was like cool for me and I would learn that that's what I loved learning. And um, uh, so that really kind of fired up my love. I never ever considered it a career. I mean, when I went into high school, I was, I was pretty sure that what I wanted to do was go to Stanford and become a lawyer that was like, you know, I just had this, like, that was a good southern boy thing to do. It was like, okay, be a lawyer, be a doctor. And, um, uh, I was valedictorian in my class. I was, you know, I did really well, but when I applied to Stanford, I didn't get in. And it was one of those moments that it was like, okay, so that future I always thought I was living into is now not happening. So now what? It was like this moment where this thing I thought was happening wasn't, and I said, well, what, what should I do? And I, uh, I remember going well, I'm really like, my love for music really got elevated in high school. I had a, uh, uh, there was no music program at my high school that I went to. It was a tiny little high school in Steamboat Springs, Colorado. And my junior, in my junior year, a woman decided to start a glee club out there. It was the only music thing that was there. And I'm like, okay, great. I'll join the Glee club, at least have some music. I was also in Glee Club, just so Okay, good. just doubting myself right now. We called it show Choir, same thing. Uh, we took second in state in Nebraska. Okay. Very good. in the 19 hundreds, late 19 hundreds. very good. Well, for many years, I mean, you couldn't e I would be, wouldn't even admit it until the show Glee claim out came out and then all of a sudden it was like, oh, glee clubs are cool again. it's cool. Even though it was not cool while we were at high school, uh, at all I mean, unless you were in the Glee Club, then it was cool, but everybody else. Yeah, That's right. It was right there. Band Geeks and Glee Club. That's what it was. Um, uh, and the woman who let it let it for a few, like a little while, and she happened to have a place that she called the barn. She had this like large barn that she had converted into kind of like this dorm, these living quarters. And what she would do is Steamboat Springs had, you know, needed musicians that would come in and play the bars and the clubs over the ski season, but lodging's ridiculously expensive and you can't, you know, get a place to stay and be a, you know, a traveling musician. So she had this low cost place where she would host musicians to be able to stay for the ski season and like play bars and places around Steamboat. And uh, yeah. And she had this jazz piano player staying there, Oscar, and she said, Hey Oscar, do you wanna take over the Glee Club out in, at the Steamboat Mountain School? And he was like, yeah, sure. So he came out and he saw the school and he said, well, why don't I offer a music class too while I'm out here? And I remember it was like, si, it was a music class for sixth period. I had this required class, sixth period. I couldn't take it. And I went up to Oscar after lunch and I'm like, oh my gosh, Oscar, I would love to take your music class, but I have a required class. Is there any way you could move it to fifth period? He's like, no, I've already got kids in it and I can't really move it. And I'm like, well, I I hope you do it again cuz I really want to take it. The next day he comes up to me and he goes, tell you what, I'll come up early and just, you and I will get together fifth period. And I'll just kind of like, yeah. So I had like privates with him for like a semester, a semester and a half. And uh, he was, oh, he exposed me to so much music, like modern classical music and, and scores and, and, um, jazz and more of the Roman. I mean, just, he was, he had such a breadth of knowledge and was such an amazing piano player. I. Um, and then he did something which I still consider brilliant to this day. He went around the school and he figured out who played musical instruments in the school. Like, and no matter what it He did like a survey of people. yeah, it was like, oh, you play violin, but not very well. Okay. You play flute, okay, you play guitar. And, you know, it was a lot of guitar players, keyboard players, a flute player, a violin player, someone who played clarinet. And he would say, okay, here's your ensemble. Write for 'em. And so we would have these weird eclectic ensembles and I'd have to write for them and figure out what they could do and, you know, figure out how to write down the parts and make them parts. And oh my gosh, Wow, this guy like crafted you. Sounds like he was like your Mr. Miyagi over here. He really, I, you know, I'm still in contact with him and I've, I've been able to let him know over the pandemic. I'd asked for a Zoom call with him and really, um, got to thank him for my life really, because, you know, Without what he did at high school, I definitely wouldn't be on the path I was on because, you know, then when I didn't get into Stanford, this was the natural next thing for me to go into cuz I loved it and I was so like, um, passionate about it. And my parents were great. You know, it's like, you know, when I said I want to go out to Santa Barbara and study music, um, my dad had always wanted to pursue acting and was just never, never did. And so he was kind of like, yeah, you should go for it. If you want to do it, you should do it cuz you can always do something else if it doesn't work out. I'm like, all right. So I came out here and by the time I was a senior I was already working on stuff for discovery channels, so there it was, and we can talk about how that happened. Senior in college and you went to, uh, uc. Berkeley. Sorry. Uc. Santa Barbara. Yep. Uc. S b. Okay, cool. Excellent. Yeah. So, um, so then, yeah, how did it, how did it happen that you started working for Discovery? You know, it was, so when I was in, so I'm, I graduated 1990, so I came out in 86. Um, now when I came out, it was kind of the advent of the, the Macintosh, the personal computer. So they were just starting, like the early Mac pluses were just coming out, and I convinced my parents to buy me a Mac. And, uh, I had, I was, so, I was studying music. I had a composition teacher when I was a freshman, who sh she seemed to care more about the way your score looked, then how it sounded. It was like she was a stickler for neatness. Like, and of course this was before you could easily print music, but I mean, it was coming. So I would set up all night with like flexible curves and rub on notes and accidentals and calligraphy pins, just making my scores look as beautiful as I could. And um, uh, someone at one point said to me, you know, I think someone just came out with a computer program that print music. And I'm like, oh my God, that would save me so much time. And I went looking in a music store and they were like, yeah, we've got this thing called op code Sequencer 2.5 with transcription. And they sold it to me and I brought it home and I installed it and it didn't print music and I was pissed. And it, and uh, but what it was was it was a very early version of a computer doll. I mean, it was before there was digital audio, so it was just literally a computer sequencer. And I remember thinking, okay, well I have this now what does it do? And I had like one synthesizer in a drum machine and I hooked it up to it and I figured out how to use it and how it could work. And I'm like, oh, this is really cool. I can layer parts on my synth and layer over the drum machine and it all sinks to the computer. And, and so I became a pretty early on expert in how to hook up MIDI and get MIDI Studios going back in the days when all everyone was buying all their computers and Synthes synthesizers. So I was working in a music store in Santa Barbara, mostly helping people in Santa Barbara set up MIDI studios. Like they would come into the store, they'd buy a bunch of equipment, and then I'd go over to their studio or their house and show 'em how to hook it up and show'em how it worked. And um, and I loved doing that. But one day I was sitting in the music store and, and uh, some guy came in and he was like, I'll have this mixing board and I'll take this rack and I'll buy this effect. And he was buying a, a lot of equipment and I worked on commission, so I was Mm-hmm. Yeah. And You know, there's something going on here with, uh, money bags over here, buying all the good stuff. Yeah. Exactly. And I'm thinking, oh, it's gonna be a good day since I worked on commission. And right at the end he goes, oh, and hey, um, do you know I'm doing a documentary for a and e? Do you know anyone who does music? And um, I just was like, well, I could do it. He's like, oh great. And uh, and he, he, I was like, can I see it? You have, you have video? And he's like, nah, I didn't bring a video, but it's, you know, it's about rafting down the Zaire River, so, you know, African drums and action music. And uh, and, and I said, when do you need it? And he was like, oh, tomorrow morning. And I was like, really? I'm like, okay. So I literally, I went home after work and I went into my little studio, which I'd put together with two of my friends and me and a friend just sat up all night writing music, whatever we could think of, well, let's do this, let's do this, let's do this. And we brought it down to their studio in Ventura the next day and just started laying it against picture, we want music here. Well, it's something actiony. So we'd bring something up and lay it again. And it was incredible how much of it worked. I mean, we, they were like, this is great. It's working great. huh? And, uh, they, and so they started bring, they had never used original music before. They had always used needle drop library music. And so they really wanted to use us. So they started using us on a project here or there. And one day they called and said, Hey, discovery Channel just contacted us. And they're thinking about doing a week of shark documentaries and calling it Shark Week. And they want us to contribute to it. And they matched me with this pro, this news producer in Ventura, who had never done a documentary, Jeff Kerr. And, uh, we did an episode for Shark Week called Shark Shooters, and he and I have been working on Shark Week together every year now for 33 years. Wow. That's amazing. That's awesome. Don't totally, Making Jaws music uh, yeah, exactly. Or staying away from Jaw's music, so I don't get sued by John Williams, but yes. So that's amazing. So then, um, and then you then, you lived in Santa Barbara for a long time. You're, you're still doing Shark Week every year. How did N C I S, Los Angeles, was that kind of your next sort of big gig there as far as doing Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say it wouldn't be, I, it, it is definitely the biggest or highest profile gig I've done to date. Um, you know, it's like I did, I spent years doing kid shows for PB s I did a series called JJ the Jet Plane for many Oh yeah. I. And I did another series called Betsy's Kindergarten Adventure. And then I spent many years doing commercials. You know, I got hooked up with a commercial agency and was doing like McDonald's and Samsung and Burger King and uh, uh, just a ton of commercials. And, uh, N C I S came about. A good friend of mine here in Santa Barbara is Jay Ferguson. And Jay is, uh, he used to be in a band called Spirit back in the day. And, um, then he went on into soundtracks, you know, he's got, he's got a hit under his solo Thunder Island. And I, his biggest hit at least that most people would recognize these days is he wrote the theme for the office. So, you know, almo, almost everyone knows that. Um, and he was, he was the original composer on N C I S, Los Angeles. And he came up to me, um, and he was getting burnt out about season six and it's a lot of music every week. And I get it. I mean, and he was like, I need help. I can't do this by myself. Uh, and he, since he lives in Santa Barbara, he started talking to his teams, like, who could we get to come in and, and help? And uh, you know, they went through a bunch of people in town and they eventually, someone said my name and Jay was like, oh yeah, I'd love, let's see if Craig would be interested. And I came over to his place and I sat in his studio and, uh, and Jay has, he won't mind me telling you this, um, I, I used to call his studio like, you could almost put museum ropes around it. It was so old and like a wax figure of Jay playing it cuz it was like he had just old software and old equipment and it was, it was almost like walking back like 10, uh, you know, going through a 10 year time machine when I saw his studio. Um, but he had set up the score for N C I S to be on his pallet. And I, uh, and so when he contacted me, he originally said, I'm looking for someone that can edit, um, the existing cues. And, you know, if there's a cue that that, that they used in there that works, make edits, make it sound good, we remix it and do it. And, uh, and, and what you'll have to do is you'll have to duplicate my studio at your house. And he was like, he had to duplicate everything, like all these old synths and old computers. And, and I mean, to that old student who loved hooking up MIDI Studios, it was actually like, oh, this could be fun. Like hooking that up and getting that. Um, and I remember I said, Jay, well I know I could do this and I know I could do this well, but I'm not really at the point in my career where I'm interested in just editing music for TV shows. Mm-hmm. And Jay goes, yeah, you know, I get that. And he goes, well, look, I tell you what, why didn't you do it for a year? Let's see how we work together. Let's see how you pick up the vibe of the show. And then I'll just start handing you the show, um, and, you know, pull you on full credit, start, you know, full royalties, everything, and just slowly turn over the show to you. And I was like, all right, I'm game. Let's do it. And so, you know, I spent a year, I I, for a while, I had two studios in my little room here. I had his setup and my setup. And um, you know, I spent a full year kind of learning the musical vocabulary of the show, this kind of sonic world that he had created. And, uh, then I slowly started writing and it was, you know, the, the assistant on the show, Michael Mason, who's I, he's just an amazing man. He's, he's been composer assistants for like James Newton Howard and Snuffy Walden, and. Mike Post and uh, you know, and John Deney, a lot of people. And, and, uh, he used to say, wow, Craig, you're doing a really good job of Craig Dobbin writing Jay Ferguson. Cuz I was able to kind of get into his mind and his world, and then slowly, but slowly starting to put my own stamp on it, my own voice on it, so I could kind of introduce like new infuse a little more of my ideas into the show. Um, uh, the, the one one, the one story I remember going too far was Jay doesn't really use French horn as a musical voice much in his compositions. And to me, French horn screams heroism. So I, you know, I had a scene where I wanted to go full hero on exactly just like, ah, arrive and uh, uh, I used a french horn and the producers were not used to hearing french horn in the score. And we got on the dub stage and the music editor called me and is like, uh, Craig, they, you've gotta split off this French horn. So cuz we may be losing it cuz they're just not used to it. I'm like, all right, so here's what I'm gonna do. I'm just gonna start over the next few shows, just putting little hints here and there. Nothing too obvious just to warm their ears up to that sonic sound. Um, and then, you know, by the, by the ending of the show now I've been able to go full french horn heroism and they don't have any issue with it, so That's beautiful. Um, I actually, I, I have a little N C I s Los Angeles anecdote. I was in an episode of N C I S, Los Angeles as a Christmas caroler. Yep. It was the Christmas episode. Um, uh, I don't remember what year it was, uh, but like 10 years ago I was, I was in it and I played a Christmas caroler and, um, somebody got shot and, you know, they came out the door and I was like, trying to get this other girl out of the way. Um, and we sang, we were singing at the beginning of the episode, and I still get te checks, um, every month for like, you know, somewhere between, uh, $18 and one penny. I really, I actually got a check from N C I S Los Angeles for one penny. but Totally sounds like my Spotify checks, but yeah, Yeah. So, um, so anyway, that's my, that's my Antis Los Angeles anecdote, but That's, that's, amazing. That's a great story. And it's really interesting how you transformed the listening of the producers so that you could really make the impact that you wanted to make with the instruments that you wanted to use. Totally. ask you, you know, what, what does it mean for you to, what, you know, why be a composer? What do you think, what do you see as the value of being a composer to, to audience members, to people? I. Well, that's a big question, but I, I saw, I'm gonna approach it from two different ways. So one is, I mean, the function of a composer, at least in terms of a film and tv, like, first of all, I'm, I like to say I'm, I'm very clear that I'm in the service industry because as a composer, my job is to fulfill the vision of the producer or the whoever, the, whoever has the overarching creative vision. It's not like I, I mean, yes, I get to have my view about it, but my job is to hear what their vision is and make sure that I fulfill it for them, because, you know, I'm providing a service for this overall vision of the show. Um, and to be able to listen. I, I think the most, I mean the biggest thing as a composer is being able to listen to the people that are talking to you about the music and be able to translate that into musical term. Because, you know, you're, you're often talking with non-musical people and the most dangerous ones are the ones that actually have a little bit of musical knowledge, cuz they'll use it in a way that probably it shouldn't be used. Cuz you know, they'll, and they're trying to be helpful. I get it. You know, it's like the, like I was in a spotting session once and um, we were listening to one of the temp cues they had and, uh, one of the producers goes, yeah, and I, I, I think it should really be a minor chord here. And I was like, okay, well there's already a minor chord in the temp score, so I know they don't mean a minor chord, so let me figure out what they mean. And I was like, I said, okay, so. I think what you're trying to say is you want some more emotional weight at that point. You want it to feel and there's like, yes, yes, yes, I'm okay. Okay, good. I can do that. But being able to understand what they're saying and then being able to translate it. Um, and creatively as a composer, this is what I love the most about it. You know, it's like if you put a blank sheet of paper in front of me and say, write music. I mean, I could do it, but it's really intimidating. I mean, it's like, cuz you know, there's this infinite possibilities. And what do I want to say? I love the creative constraints of working on a film and TV project because, you know, it's like now I have, I know how long it has to be. I know what I'm trying to say. I know where it needs to change and why, and I've got these kind of constraints and then I get to create inside of those. And you know, even when I'm doing stuff like with my band where I have unlimited stuff, I create those artificial constraints for myself because for, for me, it really inspires the best creativity if I've got some sort of constraint on me. Hmm, That's fascinating. Yeah. So they kind of give you a glass and then it's your job to fill it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's great. Very cool. Yeah, I also, um, I, I do a lot of music as well, um, write music and mostly sort of folk pop music. But, um, and I, I find my process is just, you know, I'll find like a melody that I really like and I'll keep working that melody over and over again until I get somewhere that I really like it. And then I'll add words and think about where, what's the, where is this coming from, you know, what's the point here? What's the message that I want to convey? And then I add words, and then I, then I go in and add guitars, and then I work with the producer to add other instrumentation. And so I love that process as well. For me, I kind of, I like, I, I rarely come at a song where I'm like, okay, I want to sing. There. There are times where I think I really wanna write a song about X. You know, like I have a song that'll be released this year called Blame. That's. About blame. And that was a very intentional, I got really fed up with a friend of mine and I wrote a song that was very pointed about that subject. Uh, but a lot, so often it's just kind of free form. And I, I really love that, you know, that whole process. Uh, I just think music is such a, a, it's, it's such a sacred art, you know? I really, I feel like I have this vision in my mind of, you know, if everybody was just singing to each other all the time, we would have world peace, you know, cuz they'd be totally expressed and it'd be Completely. Completely. And you know, there's this part of coming together. You know, it's like, cuz with music you have to both be, um, when you're playing an instrument, you both have to be playing it and listening and fitting in and finding that connection in between, which is, you know, it's magic and it's hard to hate someone when you're in both listening and fi and joining with them, Yeah. well said. Yeah, it's interesting too. You know, the thing that you didn't mention that I was sort of, kind of looking for a little bit is like, if you were to watch N C I S Los Angeles with no music, it would be so boring. It would just be terrible. In fact, really, if you watched any movie, almost any movie, unless there's some sort of intentionality of not having music because it's whatever, you know, um, it's just completely boring and devoid of any kind of emotion. You know, we don't know where to go as a viewer without that element. And I, I feel like it's, well, Well, feel like it's emotionally Yeah, I'm, because intellectually you, you, can hear, you can see, you can follow the story. So intellectually you can understand it. But how do you feel about it? The music really helps you. Like, how do I feel about this? What's happening? It gives the, it's the emotional voice of the, of the, project. Yeah, exactly. And going back to kind of the, I'm, I'm also studied theater as well, so, you know, going back to the origins of theater, you know, that was really designed to create, to get people into a trance-like state, watching the play. And also, you know, reciting lines along with them as the chorus and the ancient Greek dramas and tragedies. Uh, so they become part of this tale that's being told so that they get to emote and create something for themselves and release emotions that they weren't able to release before, didn't have the opportunity to do that so that there was this communal force that was happening. And you know, today we just sit at home and watch Netflix, but it does still have the same effect, particularly because of the addition of music without the addition of music. We wouldn't really know where to go. We just wouldn't, it wouldn't have the same effect. It wouldn't allow us to have the same emotive response and learn the lessons that the writer and the creators were trying to teach us and convey and have the emotional release that is, that we're allowed to have by watching this film, whatever it is. So I just really want to acknowledge you for, for being, you know, an emotional conductor. Thank you. I got that. Yeah, I got that. And you know, it's like you, you can see now on TikTok and Instagram, those things where they've taken a famous movie scene and put some different music and how different the scene is when you add different music to it. I mean, how you just like, you can take a horror scene and make it funny or a funny scene and make it scary just by changing the music. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So that's, that's, really beautiful. I, I, I love that that's what you do. And I wonder, maybe you could speak a little bit too, you know, one of the things that we talk about, or I talk about on this program a lot is something that I call the Love Operating System, which isn't, I don't have a trademark or anything. I just think it's a good way to frame things where, you know, we're really, loss, l o s. yeah, there you go. You know, where I'm just constantly asking myself, how do I love more? You know, how do I come from love more in my life? How do I give more love to the people that I'm with? How do I love what I'm doing more? Uh, you know, uh, how do I, how do I love more? Like, h not from a sort of like a woowoo, like, oh, he just wants to be, you know, happy all the time. But like a really, like, Hey, I want my, I want to value my life and really, I really wanna be in love with my life, um, and be happy to be alive. And, uh, I'm sure that you can relate to that doing what you do because you're doing what you really love. And I just wonder if you could speak to what that's meant for you. Well, Well, I mean, first of all, I am, I'm, I am never not grateful for what I get to do. I don't, you know, take it for granted ever. I'm, I'm very clear. I'm very fortunate. Yes, I work hard. There's parts of it that are super intense, but I really do love what, what I do, and I love being able to, uh, encourage others to try to find that passion and at least stick with it. Because I, I'm truly of the belief that if you, if you love to do something and you're willing to stand there for long enough, an opportunity will present itself. You know, it's like, and you've just gotta be listening for it because it'll show up. And if you're, if you're like, oh, this'll never work out, I'm never gonna make it, I'm, then, yeah, that's what the universe is gonna hand you, No opportunity. But if you're like, okay, I, this is what I'm doing. I'm committed to this and I'm gonna stand here and listen for the opportunity in that space, something will present itself. You know, as long as you're willing to talk about it. You know, it's like, I, I just, for, for me, young composers, it's like I just say the first thing you gotta do is you gotta tell people that that's what you do. You know, as opposed to, yeah, I'm a waiter and I hope to be a composer. No, you are a composer being a waiter right now to make money. But that's fine. But you just gotta start speaking like that's who you are. Cuz not only do other people hear that, you hear that yourself and you start relating to yourself that way. And, um, you do it enough and that opportunity will present itself. Um, and I, I love, I love that love operating system. I just, you know, uh, well in, you mentioned this earlier in, in leading, uh, landmark courses. I've fall in love with all of my participants and it, it just pause there for a second just to introduce that concept because, um, So that's, that's one of the things that you do is you lead courses for landmark education, which has been a, a huge influence on me. That's where I met my wife. It's a personal development establishment that has a, a several different courses, one of which you lead, which is like kind of their, uh, sort of part of the, their whole curriculum that they have. Uh, it's the self-expression and leadership program. So, uh, so yeah, maybe you could just explain a little bit about what that is and then, and then say what you were about to say. If you are enjoying this program, if you love lunacy, please consider becoming part of our team. Please go to patreon.com/lunacy podcast to become a member of our team. You can choose a number of different levels to support us on a monthly basis so that we can continue the work of exploring the love operating system, how best to be of service, and how to live life to the fullest. Thank you so much for your support. Much love everybody. Yeah. I mean, so, but yeah. Perfect. Thanks for, for, saying that so that at least people weren't lost. Um, the, so there's in, in what Landmark calls its curriculum for a living, there's three courses, the forum, the advanced course, and then it completes with the self-expression and leadership program. And the best way I have of describing what the various courses provide is the forum. It's like you walk out of the forum, you know, the people joke. It's like, what do you get in the forum? You get nothing. But what do you want? Nothing. Because with nothing, you can do anything because it really is like you walk outta the forum with this like wide open space in front of you where anything's possible and you can create anything you want. And, uh, the advanced course is then there to a, a answer the next question. So you come outta the forum, it's like, oh wow, I can create anything. It's like, okay, well what is, what would be a life worth living? What's something that I could give my life to that would make my life worth living? In other words, what's a possibility that I am that I could be for the world? And, uh, and you get to answer that question, I. And then you walk, come out of the advanced course, and then you go back to work and you're like, who I am is the possibility of unbridled passion and adventure. And the person next to you goes, no, you're not. You're the person who was complaining about the boss last week. Right? Because no one relates to you that way. So the final piece is you've gotta have your environment consistent with this new person, this new you, this new life that you've invented, and the program I lead, you take on a project that makes a difference in a community. You actually do something and execute something that makes a difference for people, A project of, your own invention. Exactly. And create the project yourself. you could see you've, there's been a ton of different kinds of projects that are invented. I mean, anywhere from someone takes on, like curing cancer to someone takes on, like one of my favorite was a project created in, um, Australia called Gopat. Which stands for give Old People a Thrill. And the project was, he got a biker club to go to retirement homes and give old people rides on motorcycle. And uh, and they loved it. So I mean, but anything that has people then go, wow, this person really is about making a difference or up to something, cuz then the people around you start to relate to you that way. And, um, that, and so that's why I love leading that course because, you know, people that you would, that never thought they would be able to make a difference, all of a sudden wake up to the incredible difference they can make in the world. Yeah. And, uh, And they see what, how, how valuable it is to actually be. Making a difference and be of service and have that focus instead of complaining. Completely, completely, completely. So you were saying that you're, you fall in love teaching this course. You fall in love with all of your participants. Yeah. And the thing I've discovered, at least for me about love, is being able to, to know that no matter who that person is or what they've done or what they haven't done that, whatever their life has presented them up to that point. If I was in their shoes, I would've done the exact same thing. You know, it really is having compassion and get that. That's the opportun, those were the options that presented themselves and based on their past, that was the most, you know, that was the choice that occurred to them. And if I can have compassion for that, there's no upset, there's no judgment. I really can love everybody no matter what I mean, you know. No matter what their political views, no matter what their, and you know, I came from the south, so I definitely, when I go back home, I get hit with that a lot. It's not my political views. And I can still love those people like crazy because if I was living there and had those circumstances, I would feel the same way they did. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah, I, what's, what's fascinating to me about, and so valuable, I think about the training at Landmark is. Is active listening, really getting into another person's world and really, really getting that if, if you can fully come from where they're coming from and see where they're coming from and, and repeat that back to them, then first of all, they're so grateful that you actually got them. You know, most people just, that's really all they want is just to begotten. Just for somebody to get, oh, okay, this is where you're coming. Even if it's, you know, they're super sad about X, Y, or Z or something really terrible happened, you know, uh, they just really want you to get in their world and have the emotional responses that they're having. And, um, I just think that's so incredibly valuable, um, which is why I'm such a proponent of that work and just personal development in general, however you come by it. Um, Yeah. I actually, I that, that the training they do in listening, which the way I've always described it, is you get to talk with your mouth and listen with their ears. You actually have the experience of being over there, like hearing it, how they hear it, and um, talk about effective training. For what I do, being able to hear a producer and hear and see their vision. Just having all that development work has aided me so much in being able to provide a service to producers and directors. Yeah, that's great. That's great. Yeah. So I interviewed this guy named, uh, John McDonald, who founded the institute for multi-track diplomacy and they were able to make peace in Sri Lanka. They, they brokered a peace and the way that they did it was, They had the two factions, which, uh, were the Tamil Tigers and I think the Bengali something or others. They had the two factions. They came together, they brought them together, and these guys have been fighting for decades. Generations. And, um, and he just said, okay, here's what we're gonna do. You know, This guy over here from the Tamil Tigers is gonna say his case. You know, all the things that are upsetting him. Okay? And then the, the, the person from the opposing side has to stand up and repeat what they said to their satisfaction. And you get one minute to say all the things. So the person would get up and say, well, you know, I, I've, my, my uncle was murdered, uh, by this, in this conflict. You know, my mother was, is lost her arm. You know, whatever the things are that had occurred that were real terrible actual things, they would say all of them. And that's what's happened for me. You know? And then the other person would get up and they would start, and then the person would, they would finish. And then the person would either say, yeah, okay, that's good. You really got me, or you didn't get me. And they'd have to do it again until they got it right. And they just kept doing that over and over again until they got to the point where they could see the other person's side. And then they saw through that and they saw their interrelatedness, and then they were able to actually broker a piece, which, you know, uh, which lasted for, I don't know how long. I don't know what the situation is there now, but it created peace there because they were listening to each other. other. So I just think that's such a, it's such a valuable skill and we just wanna, you know, it's also a way of, of being, of service. You know, if you're listening to someone, you're really in their world, then you are being of service, then you can kind of get out of the whole. Morass and monkey mind and crazy shit that's going on inside here, you know, of, of all just getting my own needs met and worrying about all that stuff, and really get over there into what's Craig Dins world about, you know, uh, and what's, what's going on for him right now, and how can I be a service to him? How can I help him, you know, just for the sake of helping him or that other person. It's such a, um, I I, it's one of those things where I really feel like if we, if we mastered the art, art of, if we mastered the art of listening, uh, we would create world peace and so much more happiness in the world. And, and you, you said it so beautifully because really it's flipping it on its head. We think we need to say something, but that's, you know, it's, it's more about being able to listen to people deeply, you know, that's where, that's where the juice is. So, you know, say less, listen more. Yeah, really. Because even if you have the answer, I mean, I don't know about you, but I, I, I know there's a lot of times where I'll, I'll listen to friends and talk to friends and I'll, I'll, I'll be like, well, if you just did, if you just did this, this, this and this, you know, problem solved buddy. But, and I'll even tell them that, or I historically have told them that. And you know, it just falls on deaf ears. They're not, they're not listening because I didn't get where they're coming from. It doesn't work. Unfortunately, giving people advice is almost never actually heard unless you create a coaching environment where you determine, I'm gonna be coachable. I'm really gonna listen cause I wanna learn from this person who's teaching me something. Uh, almost outside of that circumstance, people just are not listening to your advice. They don't care and they don't want to hear it cuz you're telling them what to do. And then they feel like you're insulting their identity, you know, versus, so you might feel good about yourself cuz you told them the way to fix their problem, but they're never gonna fix their problem because you didn't get their world. Totally. Um, so I just think it's, you know, they have to discover it for themselves. Only way they're discover it for themselves is if you listen to them and create a space for them to find it. Exactly. Or, or even ask that, you know, it's like the, we were just in a training weekend for self-expression leadership program leaders last weekend, and what I, what I really got outta the weekend was how addicted I am to answers. It's like, I love an answer. I love a solution. And it's like, I find it because it gives me some semblance of safety or control in a world that's not safe. And ha, there's really no control anyway. And plus there's no juice in an answer with a minute. You have an answer. It kills all other possibilities. But that answer, and it's like there's, there's incredible juice in the question. It's like, you know, it's like not answering the question, who am I? But more living inside that question. Like, who am I today? Who is this person today? And you know, I've been married th 30 years. It's like waking up and going, gosh, who's Deb today? Who is this person? It takes discipline, but ah, it's so juicy. If you can live in the question without trying to land on an answer. yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm having lots of flashbacks right now to the Matrix where Trinity says to Neo, it's the question that drives us Neo. the question that brought you here, but much sexier than I just did anyway. Uh, but, but I do feel like that's true. I mean, that's why, you know, for the love operating system, I, it's, it's the question, how do I love more? You know, how do I, how do I love my life more? How do I love more in this moment? How do I be more loving right now? And it doesn't matter the answer. It is. That's why I. It's an operating system because it's like, well, I'm, if I keep asking that question, it's gonna disappear. If I answer it, then that answer becomes valueless. It's, it's, uh, it's instantaneously a part of the past. It's already gone. Once I say it, it's like trying to name God. You know? Uh, you can't, Exactly. but then it's not that anymore. Uh, once you do. So it's like just keeping that level of inquiry going. That's what really, that's where the juice is, as you say. I think, um, I have a song called, uh, what's Right, that came out on my first record. Um, and the course goes, uh, well, I just might find the answer and I just might see the light. But if I, if I ain't asking the right question, then I will never know what's right. Like I. We have to be constantly asking, looking for what is the right question? What is the thing that's gonna, that's gonna drive me further into, you know, the next thing. How, you know, otherwise, you know, it, uh, it just falls flat. Just a constant string of answers doesn't really get you anywhere. It's just finding the right question. And for me, the right question is how do I, how do I love more? That's a I. You could live your whole life inside that question and a beautiful life. So Yeah. yeah, indeed. love that question. Yeah. So what does it mean for you to be a, a leader of the self-expression and leadership program? Like, how many, you know, how does that fit in with your enjoyment of life and, and who you are as your identity? Because obviously you're impacting and inspiring so many people to in impact and inspire so many other people. So it's like you're really, you know, you're kind of starting a bonfire with what you do. and that's exactly why I do it. I mean, look, I'm clear that I love doing music and I love the impact music has and I love, you know, but writing music to N C I S, Los Angeles, and like I say, finding a new way to create tension around people, sneaking around with guns won't make the kind of difference, that lasting difference that I would love to have my life before. And, you know, landmark provides me the unique opportunity. Inside this course to make a difference beyond what I would be able to do as an individual. You know, to be able to have people in these, and, you know, the courses with these projects, I often tell people one of the exercises in the course is they create a map of all the people in their life and in their community. And I say, look, I, I'm, the secret about this course is I'm actually not leading to you. I'm leading to your map and you're just my access to it. Because when you take on a project and make the kind of difference that you can, you impact so many more people than just this person sitting in front of me. And that kind of impact. And knowing that, that, you know, you mentioned being of service and that's what it is, because those people will never know me. They'll never know anything. They'll just know. They'll just know the difference that got made. And those are the kind of things that really like. You know, it makes it a life worth living. And you, you said you did the leadership program. I just, I still do the homework out of the second weekend, which is leave every bathroom cleaner than you found it. Because I find that's a pure active service. No one knows you did it. You just know you did it. No one's gonna say thank you or Good boy. It's just making a difference for someone who'll never know. You made that difference and I, to me, that's a beautiful life. yeah, exactly. And also knowing that you. Did that is valuable. You know, at least I cleaned the fucking bathroom. Did today. All exact. Exactly. Exactly. Everything else could be not working. The computer could fail and you lost your files and you're behind your deadline, but you cleaned the bathroom. I wiped the damn sink. So there you go. Yeah. that's great. That's beautiful. Um, yeah, so, so that's great. I'm wondering, um, I guess I'm wondering, you know, if there were things that you could impart to people from your teaching at Landmark, you know, what would you, what would you say, what would you encourage people to do more of or less of? J Just, I would say live inside what's possible because, you know, it's like I, the I, I'll just describe a real tangible shift that happened. I did the forum in 1990, so I was 21 years old. Um, and I was just getting ready to start my music career. And, you know, I was living in Santa Barbara. I had just fallen in love with a woman. Uh, and everyone was telling me, everyone was telling me, Oh, you wanna do music for tv? You have to move to la. Pretty much That was it. I was like, oh, you gotta move to la Well, I didn't wanna move to LA but I was living like I had to because I, I gotta break up with this woman. I don't want to, I don't like la blah, blah, blah. And I did the forum and I was like, what is, I don't have to move to LA if anything's possible. I've just gotta shift the way I'm talking about it and shift what's possible and look from a different way. And I can so remember it was like I would meet with producers before I did the forum, and I would be like, don't worry, Santa Barbara's not that far. I can drive. It's not a big deal. And I would, I had no idea. I was introducing concern about me into the space. They're like, oh shit, he's in Santa Barbara. Maybe that will be hard. Because I was relating to it like it was hard and I, it was literally like, I came out and I would just be like, your producers was like, oh man, I live in Santa Barbara. Come up, let's go for a walk on the beach. We'll do lunch. You can get outta the city for a minute. And Billy like, Shit, let's hire Craig cuz then we can go to Santa Barbara for the weekend. And it just became a completely different world. And it's like, you know, it's like people, there's, there's realities out there that are only in place because of agreement. And you're gonna have people around you saying, you know, you have to do this, you have to do this. This is the only way to do this. Maybe, maybe not. Stand in what's possible and explore that. And being willing to communicate and explore it. And you know, I, my wife would often say, you know, Craig, you'd be the biggest jerk in the world if you weren't still participating because it keeps me inside a world of possibility. You know, cuz left to my own devices, I'll just get really nitpicky or have my opinions and all those things which make no difference. Right. it really does keep me in a place where I can always explore what's possible. Yeah. And come from humility as well. completely. completely. Like I say, you know, the reason I lead the self-expression leadership program is cuz I'm the biggest jerk in the room. I've got the most to work on, but that gives, makes me the most effective leader. That's great. That's great. Yeah. You know, something else that I find, um, really valuable about that work. It, there's so many things, um, and, you know, I'm not, I, I don't really care if people do the landmark form or not. It's, it's totally up to them. It's been super valuable for me. They're a lot of other forms of things that people can do. And I'm not here to, you know, proselytize or whatever to, to people. But I can speak to how, how it's been valuable for me. And there's two things aside from what we've already mentioned that really come to mind. One is, um, being a victim and not coming from being a victim anymore. You know, like there's. It's such a pervasive thing in our culture to just constantly be a victim of somebody else and what they've done, and then create that victim triangle of, you know, the, the victim, the persecutor and the savior, and create that over and over again. And then in that space, you're not really living your life because you're stuck in the past of whatever the thing that happened that made you become a victim, where you chose to become a victim. And, you know, it's, there's, there's a real access, uh, in landmark to, to exiting that matrix, to leaving the victim cycle and just being a stand for who you are now in this moment, recognizing, you know, I survived all of that shit. Maybe there's something I need to do to complete about it. Like, talk to the person or write a letter to the person even if they passed away or whatever it is. Communicate about it. Express myself. So that I can liberate myself from that cycle, you know? Um, which by the way is an ongoing, I mean, that's a constant battle, right? I, on, on the daily basis, something happens where I'm like, well, but what about me? You know? And I have to s no, you're not gonna go there. Right. not say in victim land. Nothing gets done there. That's, that's one thing that I think is really valuable. Um, so let's start there for you. What's, what's your reflection there on how it's helped you not be a victim? Well, I mean, and like you said, I mean, it, it, so how they, how we, you know, they say it around Landmark is being caused in the matter. Yeah. Responsible. So, and it's like, and it not like it's the truth, Mm-hmm. but it's a view of life that gives you power with life. You know? Cuz the minute you say you're a victim, you have now ascribed the power to your life to something that you can can't control and you have no access to anything, you know? And if you can literally just, cause I, I, look, I get it. There are horrible things that happen in the world. There are horrible things that happen to people. And you can still take the view of life that I'm causing the matter of all of it. Not as responsibility, not as blame or fault, but as a grace you give yourself, that gives you power in your life. And it's like, all I want is people to have power in their life. And that's all people want is to be able to be, you know, the creators of their life. And, uh, for, you know, waking up inside of that every day. Cuz you know, if something happens and you're like, oh, it's not fair, that's my conversation's. Always a five year old, no, it's not fair, you know, and it's like, oh wow, there's that five year old again chanting that the world's not devoting itself to making you happy. Isn't that funny? Um, and you know, it's like the thing that I of practice is like, you know, if you're really, like, you got opinions and you're upset about something, go out and tell the stars one night. Just go out and look up at the stars and tell 'em all of it and watch how little they fricking care about it. You know, it's like, and, and, then notice how much you care about it. And, and you know, there may be something to get more on the side of the stars with their view of it than your view of it. It just gives you freedom. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, for sure. One of the most liberating realizations one can discover is that I am the author of my own story. I'm writing it constantly right now, every day. So whatever it is that I'm telling myself is true and, and there's confirmation from. From myself, my ego's like, yep, you're right. You can't do it. Yep, you're right. It's never gonna happen for you. Yep, you're right. You're a loser cuz they said. So, you know, uh, once you realize, oh wait, I'm, it's happening because I'm the one that's saying it like that, I'm telling the story. So maybe I could alter my story and say something different and say something empowering for myself and for other people. completely. completely. You want a different life. Start saying different things. Yeah, Sometimes it's as simple as that. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I think it's, I, I, I think it's Henry Ford said, whether you think you can or you can't, you're right. That's really good. Yeah. It's one of my faves. Um, yeah, so that's been super valuable for me. The other thing is integrity. You know, nobody goes at integrity. In my experience, and I've done a lot of different, I'm, I'm a big fan of all kinds of different personal development. I have done a lot of Buddhism and zen work. I've done a lot of spiritual work. I've done ayahuasca circles and that kind of thing, which, believe it or not, also feeds into integrity and these kind of realizations. Um, but nobody, nobody does integrity better than, than landmark. Um, and just the value of having integrity in your life and really doing what you're say you're gonna do and honoring your word, uh, and then altering your word if you need to alter your word, honoring your word, not that you know, so that there's space, so that you're honoring my word. Well, I said I was gonna do this, but I'm unable to do it in the time, so I'm just letting you know that I, you know, I'm either I'm gonna be late or the project's gonna be late, or I'm changing my word so that I'm still sticking to my word and what I said I was going to do. There's. Such an, such a huge value in that. And so many games get left behind when you embrace just honoring your word. And it sounds like to me, like I hear that I'm listening to myself outside of myself, Mm-hmm. if that's possible. And I hear, you know, when people talk about integrity, it's very intimidating cause it's like, oh, well you have to be your word all the time. Absolutely no questions asked. That's, but that's not really what we're talking about. And that's certainly not what Landmark talks about. It's, it's honoring your word. It's instead of saying, you know, if, if I'm not gonna be able to, uh, make the commitment that I made, then I go to the person that I made the commitment to. And I, I alter my word. I honor my word. I say I can't do what I said I was gonna do. This is what I can commit to. Instead. There's such a profound value in that, because otherwise, if you don't honor your word, you don't get the homework done when you said you were gonna do it, Then all of a sudden you start playing all these games in the background, you're trying to hide and you feel bad about yourself and you know, you, you don't wanna, you know, you project things onto the other person, you know, like they're persecuting me and now I'm the victim again because I didn't do what I said I was going to do. Which makes no sense. You know, we just get all crazy just because we're not willing to like, take the stand and say, okay, you know what, I, I, I screwed up, you know, I thought I was gonna do this and I'm, I'm not gonna be able to do it. Particularly before, if you can do it before it happens, that's ideal. Cuz then there's no harm, no foul. And then even if it's, I broke my word, you know, just honoring that, Hey listen, I said I was gonna do this. I didn't do it. I'm really sorry. This is what you can count on me for. It's such a liberating thing that is outside of, you know, the gamifying of playing, being a victim and not honoring your word that so many of us. Embark on, myself included. That's how I know. Uh, and integrity. It's, uh, if you really explore that world, and there's a lot of, I mean, Warner, who cr who you know, was really the founder of Landmark and created the distinctions that a lot of it's based on. He wrote a very, very long paper with this other Dr. Michael Jensen on integrity that if you ever get a chance to study it, it's just, you want to talk about giving yourself power around that. Because you know what, what you really described is mostly we associate integrity with morality and ethics. It's like, it's right to do this. It's wrong to do this, it, it's good to do this, it's bad to do this. That's just morality and ethics, which isn't integrity, you know? And if you, and if you can get the morality and ethics out of integrity, it gives you power to deal with integrity, as integrity and not as like, I should, or I shouldn't, because that's the whole game that gets you not in communication. right. right. you said, it's, it's not always keeping your word. Cuz as they say, if you're up to something big, you won't always keep your word, but you can always honor your word. You know, it's like you say what you didn't do de and the thing you didn't mention is deal with the impact of not doing it. Because sometimes there is an impact of doing it that you may have to clean up, oh this is late now you have to ha ha what can I do to deal with that impact? That's a person that just lives as it really matters. Cuz you know, promises are, are magic things if you look at 'em because they're, they're an act of pure verbal creation. Before you give a promise, nothing's there, and all of a sudden you give a promise and now something exists that someone's counting on. There's like something in that, that act of giving a promise and you know, in rounding it back to career, it's like I've, if you want to talk about how that impacts me, especially in what I do, especially in what I do, and I've told so many students this. It is so much better to do good music that's on time than great music that's late. Yeah. And you know it, because given what I do, I'm one of the last people to work on a film or a TV show, and it's like, you know, they've gone over with shooting, they've gone over with editing. Now my time's compressed, but the air date has never changed. And it's like, you know, I, I can guarantee you've never tuned into a show and it says, I'm sorry we're not airing the show this week. Cause the composer was late. So, you know, it's, it's happening no matter what. And if you are late, especially in doing what I do once, they'll never hire you again. It really is. I mean, it's like they're counting on you to deliver when you say you're gonna deliver. Yeah. That's it. That's it. And I, there's something really beautiful in what you, what you said too, and really beautiful about that condition. As a, as an artist and a composer, someone who's writing music is like, well, because as a song could never be done, you know? know, You could just always be improving and convincing yourself, well, it's not that good, but if I just add this piece and maybe, you know, I gotta get the piccolo or whatever, I, you know, that's gonna right. They, they're, they're never com, they're never completed. They're just abandoned Yeah, exactly. So, so it's such a valuable thing to just say, okay, well this is good, I like this, and, and it works, and we're just gonna go with it. And, you know, if, if they want me to alter something, I'll, I will do it. But just sticking to the deadline also for yourself is such a, I mean, that's such a liberating thing, you know, just to, to get it done. And when you said you were gonna get it done mm-hmm. Completely. And you know, there's a story of a really big director who hired a really big composer to do his film. And uh, the composer was a pop artist, so they hadn't had a lot of experience in film. And uh, they delayed the release of the movie three months cuz the composer wasn't delivering the music. And when they interviewed the director about the score, he said, wow, he created the most beautiful music for the film. It's like probably one of the best scores that's ever been done to one of my movies and I'll never work with him again. Wow. C Can you say who it was and what movie it was? I've heard the story and I'm just like, I, until I get verification, I don't even want to say cuz I don't even want to call someone out, but Okay. Okay. That's good. That's good. Let's leave it in the dark. exactly. You don't wanna get in trouble, Craig. Oh, mm-hmm. other people that you could be working with in the future. I Exactly. Exactly. That's great. That's awesome. Cool. So what's, what's next for Craig doin professionally? Yeah, so I mean, I'm now complete with N C I S even though the final episode is May 21st, where we've done, we're mixed on the show. Um, I'm super proud of the last episode I can remember, you know, when I started the show, I was, I had never watched the show, so I became a fan of the show as I kind of watched it and fell in love with the characters. And I was like, how are they gonna wrap this up in a way that's satisfying? I mean, 14 years and all these storylines and all these characters, Yeah. they, they, they did a really good job with the last episode. I'm very, very proud of both the acting and the music and the way they did the story. It was, I was very, very proud of it. And, um, a as usual, like when the N C I S season ends, I start Shark Week, so I'm going straight into this year's Shark week. Um, uh, which is great. I'm doing six episodes for this year's Shark Week, and then right after Shark Week, which I'm really excited about, I'm doing a feature film called The Tasting, which, uh, a friend of mine, Paula Isri, it's, is writing and directing. It's her first feature film, and it's a psychological thriller set in the high end world of wine. It's about master sommelier, but it's told as like a little bit of a horror torture tale, but it's a tale of revenge and, and culture. And I, and the coolest thing about it for me is I get to actually work with a live orchestra. I'll hire about a 16 to 24 piece string section, um, and, uh, get to work with them as I create it. So I'm That's amazing. That's great. Is this your fir Probably not your first time doing that. It's not my first time doing a feature or working with an orchestra, but it's my first time doing an orchestra on a feature for sure. The only other times that I've had budgets for, um, a live orchestra, were on commercials, so more on short form project. But this one's, uh, I'm, yeah, this will be the most music I've done with an orchestra. I'm really excited about it. sweet. I'm excited to hear it my friend. Thank you. Um, okay, good. So I always ask this question to my guests. For you Craig, what is sacred and what is insane? Wow. What is sacred and what is insane? Well, I, I see, I see a large crossover in between them, but, um, for me, what's sacred are, um, huh I, The, the word that just keeps coming up is family. My family. And that doesn't necessarily mean blood family, but the people that I get to live my life with, that's just really sacred to me. It's special. I hold it close, I hold it dear. I don't take it for granted. Um, and I treasure it. So to me, that's what sacred is. And what's insane is just this fricking amazing life that we get to live. I mean, it's like life is so improbable and so crazy all the time. Uh, it's just insane. I mean, I am constantly blown away by just the pure joy of life and living and discovery and people, uh, to me it's, it's insane. It's, it's crazy that, that whatever. Conflagration of circumstances and atoms and elements came together to create this moment exactly the way it is. Um, it's, it's miraculous and I guess the insane part is then me here with 54 years of experience after eons of all these atoms coming together to create this moment. What's insane is the moments when I go, this shouldn't be this way. It's like, gosh, who am I to tell the universe that things shouldn't be the way they are because they're absolutely perfect. Hmm. That's beautiful. That's really beautiful. Yeah. I love, I love, uh, I love your answer. You're the, you're my first guest to keep both sides of it positive. Okay. Okay, good. Uh, and uh, and I really love the distinction that you made about family. You know, I cuz I, I totally agree with that. I, the, the, friends that are around me and all the people that I work with are also, I consider my family and I really do consider them my family. Um, as outside of, you know, I love my actual family too, and, and, uh, but, but yeah, it's great to expand that family too. All the people that we know and associate with, you know, and of course on a larger level to the rest of humanity, we're all, we're all fam, you know what I mean? Like it or not. a hundred percent. We are. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Great. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Lunacy. I really appreciate you and your work, and particularly the work that you do at Landmark, but also your music is awesome, and that show was really great and I really am proud to, proud to know you, my friend. you. Likewise. And I, you know, it's like I've been doing a bunch of these and Jeff, it's like, this has been the most fun I've had and the most self-expressed I've got to be. So I really appreciate you providing the forum for, to have a conversation this. you, Craig. I really appreciate that. That's really awesome. Yeah. All right, great. So, uh, lunacy is a creation myself, Jeff Ado, with Podcast Management Production by Kimberly Joy Voice, llc. Thank you so much for checking us out. If you want to contribute, please go to patreon.com/lunacy podcast and become a member of our team. Much love everybody.